[Sidefx-houdini-list] Layered shaders in shop

Jordan Halsey jordanhalsey at gmail.com
Mon Sep 22 12:51:58 EDT 2014


Hey...missed this one. Great link.


*Jordan Halsey*
*maya | houdini | nuke | ae*
*www.jordanhalsey.com <http://www.jordanhalsey.com>*
*323-273-9995*

On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Andrew Lyons <tstexture at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ahhh. That's very cool. A Wolfwood / Burley tag team...
> On Sep 22, 2014 2:20 AM, "Jordan Walsh" <jordan.h.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you had a look at this thread?
> >
> >
> http://forums.odforce.net/topic/20682-bsdf-bonanza-ggx-microfacets-disney-brdf-and-more/
> >
> > Jordan
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Andrew Lyons <tstexture at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm interested to know how many studios have implemented the Brent
> Burley
> > > material model?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/library/s2012_pbs_disney_brdf_notes_v2.pdf
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Rendering/Materials/PhysicallyBased/index.html
> > >
> > > This seemed to me to be a great leap forward in simplifying material
> > > interfaces. A simplified material interface permits interfaces for
> > > materials with multiple layers to become less of an issue for artists.
> > >
> > > Surely the ability to create new material configurations with VOPs
> should
> > > not be beyond any senior artist?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > >
> > > On 19 September 2014 03:19, Jordi Bares <jordibares at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is fun I have been playing  lot with PBR_layered_material from
> > Orbolt
> > > >
> > > > https://www.orbolt.com/asset/_danylyon::PBR_layered_material
> > > >
> > > > Which IMHO is really what you are talking about.
> > > >
> > > > Funny enough coming from XSI where all the shaders are closed and you
> > > > can't mess with the internals this is not a problem for me but seems
> to
> > > be
> > > > a major problem for many houdini artists I have talk to.
> > > >
> > > > Is this the case for you? i am interested to know.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jordi Bares
> > > > jordibares at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > On 19 Sep 2014, at 10:19, Pablo Giménez <pablogipi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am with Rob.
> > > > > Make a compiled uber shader, it will work for most cases. Uses one
> > copy
> > > > and
> > > > > do objects overrides as most as possible. This will save you a lot
> of
> > > > > hassle.
> > > > > It is good to have the base shader, where all lighting models are,
> > in a
> > > > > VOP, use this to make the compiled uber shader but also provide the
> > VOP
> > > > > option in case users needs to make more custom looks.
> > > > > 90% of the time you just need to use textures to modulate the
> BSDFs,
> > > > there
> > > > > is no point to use a completely open material as the base for the
> > look
> > > > dev.
> > > > > Would be great to have some input from Mark to know exactly how
> > Mantra
> > > > > optimizes shaders, and if it mostly based on the code, or is based
> on
> > > > > parameters vales as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > My 2 cents
> > > > >
> > > > > P
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2014-09-19 4:03 GMT+01:00 Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Well, it's not compiling that's so much the issue, it's the actual
> > > > >> optimization of the shader. It's how Mantra has managed to get so
> > fast
> > > > (for
> > > > >> a PBR renderer) without resorting to C++ shaders which would
> > suck....
> > > > so if
> > > > >> you have 100 shaders (even if they're identical, in terms of code)
> > > each
> > > > one
> > > > >> will have different parameters set and each needs to be optimized.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> At least, as I understand it, hopefully Mark E will correct me
> > quickly
> > > > :)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Peter B
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On 18 September 2014 19:13, Rob East <east.robert at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> A precompile will help but it's just better if you can have 1
> > shader
> > > > and
> > > > >>> do object overrides but the catch is you will need a way of
> > updating
> > > > the
> > > > >>> geometry nodes without blowing away your local overrides, which
> has
> > > > been
> > > > >>> known to happen in some pipelines.
> > > > >>> I must admit I am very much in favour of keeping things simple
> and
> > > not
> > > > >>> having a workflow of using Swiss Army knife shaders !
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Rob
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Robert East
> > > > >>> T: +61 0424648857
> > > > >>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > > > >>> Sydney Australia
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> From iPhone
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On 19 Sep 2014, at 11:47 am, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com
> >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Good call Peter. What if we pre-compile the shaders before they
> > hit
> > > > >>>> lighting?
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Peter Bowmar <
> pbowmar at gmail.com
> > >
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Beware very long render-startup times though. We have  a single
> > > > >> 3-layer
> > > > >>>>> uber-shader that takes many many minutes to optimize all the
> > > > instances
> > > > >>> of
> > > > >>>>> on a production scene with 60-100 copies of the shader. Reduces
> > > > >>> Lighters to
> > > > >>>>> waiting a looooong time just to see one change.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On 18 September 2014 16:43, Nick Deboar <
> nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Hey,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> My currently plan is to wrap our shader into a single vop
> node,
> > > > which
> > > > >>> can
> > > > >>>>>> then be easily duplicated/mixed in vops. Make life a little
> less
> > > > >>>>>> complicated.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Ta,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Nick
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pablo Giménez <
> > > pablogipi at gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> As Peter said you don't have coshaders in VEX.
> > > > >>>>>>> Appart from this, which I doubt how useful it will be, many
> > > studios
> > > > >>> are
> > > > >>>>>> now
> > > > >>>>>>> getting away of the coshaders workflow for many reasons,
> for  a
> > > > >> shader
> > > > >>>>> I
> > > > >>>>>>> think a prebuilt one with 3/5 layers is enough for 99.9% of
> the
> > > > >> looks.
> > > > >>>>>>> So honestly, I am not sure if the overhead and development
> > needed
> > > > to
> > > > >>>>> have
> > > > >>>>>>> coshaders are worth.
> > > > >>>>>>> Can you get your inhouse shader extend to support 3 layers?
> > > > >>>>>>> Before getting coshaders I prefer that SESI provides a better
> > > > >> surface
> > > > >>>>>>> shader, a layered version and improve the multi inputs
> > dialogues
> > > so
> > > > >>> you
> > > > >>>>>> can
> > > > >>>>>>> drag and drop and reorder all the different entries and get a
> > > kind
> > > > >> of
> > > > >>>>>>> photoshop layering mechanism.
> > > > >>>>>>> Coshaders can wait ....
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> 2014-09-18 8:01 GMT+01:00 Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com
> >:
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Bugger, thanks Peter!
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Peter Bowmar <
> > > pbowmar at gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Basically, you can't do it at the moment without going to
> > VOPs
> > > > >>>>> which
> > > > >>>>>> as
> > > > >>>>>>>> you
> > > > >>>>>>>>> mention has a lot of overhead. However, a lot of the
> > groundwork
> > > > to
> > > > >>>>> be
> > > > >>>>>>>> able
> > > > >>>>>>>>> to do this has been laid down in Mantra/Vex so hopefully
> > > someday
> > > > >>>>>> we'll
> > > > >>>>>>>> have
> > > > >>>>>>>>> this ability!
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2014 19:40, Nick Deboar <
> > nick.deboar at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> That's the sort of enthusiasm i'm looking for!
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> In a renderman context, I thought I could have the layers
> as
> > > > >>>>>>>> co-shaders,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> and just import them into a single shader. Can't work out
> > how
> > > to
> > > > >>>>> do
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> anything remotely like that in Vex/Mantra, but happy to
> > > > entertain
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> suggestions.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Nicko
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Matt Estela <
> > > > >>>>>> matt.estela at gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> +1000000
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 September 2014 12:27, Nick Deboar <
> > > nick.deboar at gmail.com
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Rob,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> We've got our own inhouse shader. Also, it would be nice
> > to
> > > > >>>>>> maybe
> > > > >>>>>>>>> layer
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> more than two shaders, and of different shader types.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ta,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Rob East <
> > > > >>>>>>> east.robert at gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>    On the orbolt store there is an excellent pbr
> layered
> > > > >>>>>>> shader
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> that's
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> artist friendly. The commercial version  is open so you
> > can
> > > > >>>>>>> roll
> > > > >>>>>>>>> your
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> own
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> version.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert East
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> T: +61 0424648857
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sydney Australia
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From iPhone
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2014, at 12:01 pm, Nick Deboar <
> > > > >>>>>>>> nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anyway to layer shaders in shop (not vop)?
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We rather stay away from vops, it means we need to
> > > > >>>>> create a
> > > > >>>>>>> new
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> shader
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everytime we want to layer something, and being able
> mix
> > > > >>>>>> and
> > > > >>>>>>>>> match
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different shaders is much more flexible. Also, having
> > two
> > > > >>>>>>>>> materials
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> one
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shop node ends in a a messy front end gui, loads of
> > > > >>>>>>> parameters
> > > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> promote,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we rather artists not deal with vops.
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> --
> > > > >>>>>>> Un saludo
> > > > >>>>>>> Best Regards
> > > > >>>>>>> Pablo Giménez
> > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> --
> > > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Peter B
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Peter B
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > >> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > >> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Un saludo
> > > > > Best Regards
> > > > > Pablo Giménez
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > ===================================================
> > > Andrew D Lyons | Software Engineer | http://www.linkedin.com/in/tstex
> > > ===================================================
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
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> > >
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> >
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