[Sidefx-houdini-list] Layered shaders in shop

Andrew Lyons tstexture at gmail.com
Mon Sep 22 10:48:10 EDT 2014


Ahhh. That's very cool. A Wolfwood / Burley tag team...
On Sep 22, 2014 2:20 AM, "Jordan Walsh" <jordan.h.walsh at gmail.com> wrote:

> Have you had a look at this thread?
>
> http://forums.odforce.net/topic/20682-bsdf-bonanza-ggx-microfacets-disney-brdf-and-more/
>
> Jordan
>
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Andrew Lyons <tstexture at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm interested to know how many studios have implemented the Brent Burley
> > material model?
> >
> >
> >
> http://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/library/s2012_pbs_disney_brdf_notes_v2.pdf
> >
> >
> https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Rendering/Materials/PhysicallyBased/index.html
> >
> > This seemed to me to be a great leap forward in simplifying material
> > interfaces. A simplified material interface permits interfaces for
> > materials with multiple layers to become less of an issue for artists.
> >
> > Surely the ability to create new material configurations with VOPs should
> > not be beyond any senior artist?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> > On 19 September 2014 03:19, Jordi Bares <jordibares at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > It is fun I have been playing  lot with PBR_layered_material from
> Orbolt
> > >
> > > https://www.orbolt.com/asset/_danylyon::PBR_layered_material
> > >
> > > Which IMHO is really what you are talking about.
> > >
> > > Funny enough coming from XSI where all the shaders are closed and you
> > > can't mess with the internals this is not a problem for me but seems to
> > be
> > > a major problem for many houdini artists I have talk to.
> > >
> > > Is this the case for you? i am interested to know.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jordi Bares
> > > jordibares at gmail.com
> > >
> > > On 19 Sep 2014, at 10:19, Pablo Giménez <pablogipi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am with Rob.
> > > > Make a compiled uber shader, it will work for most cases. Uses one
> copy
> > > and
> > > > do objects overrides as most as possible. This will save you a lot of
> > > > hassle.
> > > > It is good to have the base shader, where all lighting models are,
> in a
> > > > VOP, use this to make the compiled uber shader but also provide the
> VOP
> > > > option in case users needs to make more custom looks.
> > > > 90% of the time you just need to use textures to modulate the BSDFs,
> > > there
> > > > is no point to use a completely open material as the base for the
> look
> > > dev.
> > > > Would be great to have some input from Mark to know exactly how
> Mantra
> > > > optimizes shaders, and if it mostly based on the code, or is based on
> > > > parameters vales as well.
> > > >
> > > > My 2 cents
> > > >
> > > > P
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2014-09-19 4:03 GMT+01:00 Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > >> Well, it's not compiling that's so much the issue, it's the actual
> > > >> optimization of the shader. It's how Mantra has managed to get so
> fast
> > > (for
> > > >> a PBR renderer) without resorting to C++ shaders which would
> suck....
> > > so if
> > > >> you have 100 shaders (even if they're identical, in terms of code)
> > each
> > > one
> > > >> will have different parameters set and each needs to be optimized.
> > > >>
> > > >> At least, as I understand it, hopefully Mark E will correct me
> quickly
> > > :)
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> Peter B
> > > >>
> > > >> On 18 September 2014 19:13, Rob East <east.robert at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> A precompile will help but it's just better if you can have 1
> shader
> > > and
> > > >>> do object overrides but the catch is you will need a way of
> updating
> > > the
> > > >>> geometry nodes without blowing away your local overrides, which has
> > > been
> > > >>> known to happen in some pipelines.
> > > >>> I must admit I am very much in favour of keeping things simple and
> > not
> > > >>> having a workflow of using Swiss Army knife shaders !
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Rob
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Robert East
> > > >>> T: +61 0424648857
> > > >>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > > >>> Sydney Australia
> > > >>>
> > > >>> From iPhone
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 19 Sep 2014, at 11:47 am, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Good call Peter. What if we pre-compile the shaders before they
> hit
> > > >>>> lighting?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com
> >
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Beware very long render-startup times though. We have  a single
> > > >> 3-layer
> > > >>>>> uber-shader that takes many many minutes to optimize all the
> > > instances
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>>> on a production scene with 60-100 copies of the shader. Reduces
> > > >>> Lighters to
> > > >>>>> waiting a looooong time just to see one change.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On 18 September 2014 16:43, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Hey,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> My currently plan is to wrap our shader into a single vop node,
> > > which
> > > >>> can
> > > >>>>>> then be easily duplicated/mixed in vops. Make life a little less
> > > >>>>>> complicated.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Ta,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Nick
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pablo Giménez <
> > pablogipi at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> As Peter said you don't have coshaders in VEX.
> > > >>>>>>> Appart from this, which I doubt how useful it will be, many
> > studios
> > > >>> are
> > > >>>>>> now
> > > >>>>>>> getting away of the coshaders workflow for many reasons, for  a
> > > >> shader
> > > >>>>> I
> > > >>>>>>> think a prebuilt one with 3/5 layers is enough for 99.9% of the
> > > >> looks.
> > > >>>>>>> So honestly, I am not sure if the overhead and development
> needed
> > > to
> > > >>>>> have
> > > >>>>>>> coshaders are worth.
> > > >>>>>>> Can you get your inhouse shader extend to support 3 layers?
> > > >>>>>>> Before getting coshaders I prefer that SESI provides a better
> > > >> surface
> > > >>>>>>> shader, a layered version and improve the multi inputs
> dialogues
> > so
> > > >>> you
> > > >>>>>> can
> > > >>>>>>> drag and drop and reorder all the different entries and get a
> > kind
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>>>> photoshop layering mechanism.
> > > >>>>>>> Coshaders can wait ....
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> 2014-09-18 8:01 GMT+01:00 Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Bugger, thanks Peter!
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Peter Bowmar <
> > pbowmar at gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Basically, you can't do it at the moment without going to
> VOPs
> > > >>>>> which
> > > >>>>>> as
> > > >>>>>>>> you
> > > >>>>>>>>> mention has a lot of overhead. However, a lot of the
> groundwork
> > > to
> > > >>>>> be
> > > >>>>>>>> able
> > > >>>>>>>>> to do this has been laid down in Mantra/Vex so hopefully
> > someday
> > > >>>>>> we'll
> > > >>>>>>>> have
> > > >>>>>>>>> this ability!
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2014 19:40, Nick Deboar <
> nick.deboar at gmail.com
> > >
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> That's the sort of enthusiasm i'm looking for!
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> In a renderman context, I thought I could have the layers as
> > > >>>>>>>> co-shaders,
> > > >>>>>>>>>> and just import them into a single shader. Can't work out
> how
> > to
> > > >>>>> do
> > > >>>>>>>>>> anything remotely like that in Vex/Mantra, but happy to
> > > entertain
> > > >>>>>>>>>> suggestions.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Nicko
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Matt Estela <
> > > >>>>>> matt.estela at gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> +1000000
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 September 2014 12:27, Nick Deboar <
> > nick.deboar at gmail.com
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Rob,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> We've got our own inhouse shader. Also, it would be nice
> to
> > > >>>>>> maybe
> > > >>>>>>>>> layer
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> more than two shaders, and of different shader types.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ta,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Rob East <
> > > >>>>>>> east.robert at gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>    On the orbolt store there is an excellent pbr layered
> > > >>>>>>> shader
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> that's
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> artist friendly. The commercial version  is open so you
> can
> > > >>>>>>> roll
> > > >>>>>>>>> your
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> own
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> version.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert East
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> T: +61 0424648857
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sydney Australia
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From iPhone
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2014, at 12:01 pm, Nick Deboar <
> > > >>>>>>>> nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anyway to layer shaders in shop (not vop)?
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We rather stay away from vops, it means we need to
> > > >>>>> create a
> > > >>>>>>> new
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> shader
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everytime we want to layer something, and being able mix
> > > >>>>>> and
> > > >>>>>>>>> match
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different shaders is much more flexible. Also, having
> two
> > > >>>>>>>>> materials
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> one
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shop node ends in a a messy front end gui, loads of
> > > >>>>>>> parameters
> > > >>>>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> promote,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we rather artists not deal with vops.
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>>> Un saludo
> > > >>>>>>> Best Regards
> > > >>>>>>> Pablo Giménez
> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --
> > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Peter B
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> Peter B
> > > >>
> > > >> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > >> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > >> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Un saludo
> > > > Best Regards
> > > > Pablo Giménez
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ===================================================
> > Andrew D Lyons | Software Engineer | http://www.linkedin.com/in/tstex
> > ===================================================
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >
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