[Sidefx-houdini-list] Layered shaders in shop

Jordan Walsh jordan.h.walsh at gmail.com
Mon Sep 22 05:20:00 EDT 2014


Have you had a look at this thread?
http://forums.odforce.net/topic/20682-bsdf-bonanza-ggx-microfacets-disney-brdf-and-more/

Jordan

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Andrew Lyons <tstexture at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm interested to know how many studios have implemented the Brent Burley
> material model?
>
>
> http://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/library/s2012_pbs_disney_brdf_notes_v2.pdf
>
> https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Rendering/Materials/PhysicallyBased/index.html
>
> This seemed to me to be a great leap forward in simplifying material
> interfaces. A simplified material interface permits interfaces for
> materials with multiple layers to become less of an issue for artists.
>
> Surely the ability to create new material configurations with VOPs should
> not be beyond any senior artist?
>
> Cheers
>
>
> On 19 September 2014 03:19, Jordi Bares <jordibares at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It is fun I have been playing  lot with PBR_layered_material from Orbolt
> >
> > https://www.orbolt.com/asset/_danylyon::PBR_layered_material
> >
> > Which IMHO is really what you are talking about.
> >
> > Funny enough coming from XSI where all the shaders are closed and you
> > can't mess with the internals this is not a problem for me but seems to
> be
> > a major problem for many houdini artists I have talk to.
> >
> > Is this the case for you? i am interested to know.
> >
> >
> > Jordi Bares
> > jordibares at gmail.com
> >
> > On 19 Sep 2014, at 10:19, Pablo Giménez <pablogipi at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I am with Rob.
> > > Make a compiled uber shader, it will work for most cases. Uses one copy
> > and
> > > do objects overrides as most as possible. This will save you a lot of
> > > hassle.
> > > It is good to have the base shader, where all lighting models are, in a
> > > VOP, use this to make the compiled uber shader but also provide the VOP
> > > option in case users needs to make more custom looks.
> > > 90% of the time you just need to use textures to modulate the BSDFs,
> > there
> > > is no point to use a completely open material as the base for the look
> > dev.
> > > Would be great to have some input from Mark to know exactly how Mantra
> > > optimizes shaders, and if it mostly based on the code, or is based on
> > > parameters vales as well.
> > >
> > > My 2 cents
> > >
> > > P
> > >
> > >
> > > 2014-09-19 4:03 GMT+01:00 Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>:
> > >
> > >> Well, it's not compiling that's so much the issue, it's the actual
> > >> optimization of the shader. It's how Mantra has managed to get so fast
> > (for
> > >> a PBR renderer) without resorting to C++ shaders which would suck....
> > so if
> > >> you have 100 shaders (even if they're identical, in terms of code)
> each
> > one
> > >> will have different parameters set and each needs to be optimized.
> > >>
> > >> At least, as I understand it, hopefully Mark E will correct me quickly
> > :)
> > >>
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Peter B
> > >>
> > >> On 18 September 2014 19:13, Rob East <east.robert at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> A precompile will help but it's just better if you can have 1 shader
> > and
> > >>> do object overrides but the catch is you will need a way of updating
> > the
> > >>> geometry nodes without blowing away your local overrides, which has
> > been
> > >>> known to happen in some pipelines.
> > >>> I must admit I am very much in favour of keeping things simple and
> not
> > >>> having a workflow of using Swiss Army knife shaders !
> > >>>
> > >>> Rob
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Robert East
> > >>> T: +61 0424648857
> > >>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > >>> Sydney Australia
> > >>>
> > >>> From iPhone
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 19 Sep 2014, at 11:47 am, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Good call Peter. What if we pre-compile the shaders before they hit
> > >>>> lighting?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Beware very long render-startup times though. We have  a single
> > >> 3-layer
> > >>>>> uber-shader that takes many many minutes to optimize all the
> > instances
> > >>> of
> > >>>>> on a production scene with 60-100 copies of the shader. Reduces
> > >>> Lighters to
> > >>>>> waiting a looooong time just to see one change.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On 18 September 2014 16:43, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hey,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> My currently plan is to wrap our shader into a single vop node,
> > which
> > >>> can
> > >>>>>> then be easily duplicated/mixed in vops. Make life a little less
> > >>>>>> complicated.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Ta,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Nick
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pablo Giménez <
> pablogipi at gmail.com
> > >
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> As Peter said you don't have coshaders in VEX.
> > >>>>>>> Appart from this, which I doubt how useful it will be, many
> studios
> > >>> are
> > >>>>>> now
> > >>>>>>> getting away of the coshaders workflow for many reasons, for  a
> > >> shader
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>>>> think a prebuilt one with 3/5 layers is enough for 99.9% of the
> > >> looks.
> > >>>>>>> So honestly, I am not sure if the overhead and development needed
> > to
> > >>>>> have
> > >>>>>>> coshaders are worth.
> > >>>>>>> Can you get your inhouse shader extend to support 3 layers?
> > >>>>>>> Before getting coshaders I prefer that SESI provides a better
> > >> surface
> > >>>>>>> shader, a layered version and improve the multi inputs dialogues
> so
> > >>> you
> > >>>>>> can
> > >>>>>>> drag and drop and reorder all the different entries and get a
> kind
> > >> of
> > >>>>>>> photoshop layering mechanism.
> > >>>>>>> Coshaders can wait ....
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> 2014-09-18 8:01 GMT+01:00 Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Bugger, thanks Peter!
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Peter Bowmar <
> pbowmar at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Basically, you can't do it at the moment without going to VOPs
> > >>>>> which
> > >>>>>> as
> > >>>>>>>> you
> > >>>>>>>>> mention has a lot of overhead. However, a lot of the groundwork
> > to
> > >>>>> be
> > >>>>>>>> able
> > >>>>>>>>> to do this has been laid down in Mantra/Vex so hopefully
> someday
> > >>>>>> we'll
> > >>>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>> this ability!
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2014 19:40, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com
> >
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> That's the sort of enthusiasm i'm looking for!
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> In a renderman context, I thought I could have the layers as
> > >>>>>>>> co-shaders,
> > >>>>>>>>>> and just import them into a single shader. Can't work out how
> to
> > >>>>> do
> > >>>>>>>>>> anything remotely like that in Vex/Mantra, but happy to
> > entertain
> > >>>>>>>>>> suggestions.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Nicko
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Matt Estela <
> > >>>>>> matt.estela at gmail.com
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> +1000000
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 September 2014 12:27, Nick Deboar <
> nick.deboar at gmail.com
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Rob,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> We've got our own inhouse shader. Also, it would be nice to
> > >>>>>> maybe
> > >>>>>>>>> layer
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> more than two shaders, and of different shader types.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Ta,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Rob East <
> > >>>>>>> east.robert at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>    On the orbolt store there is an excellent pbr layered
> > >>>>>>> shader
> > >>>>>>>>>>> that's
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> artist friendly. The commercial version  is open so you can
> > >>>>>>> roll
> > >>>>>>>>> your
> > >>>>>>>>>>> own
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> version.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert East
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> T: +61 0424648857
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sydney Australia
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> From iPhone
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2014, at 12:01 pm, Nick Deboar <
> > >>>>>>>> nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anyway to layer shaders in shop (not vop)?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We rather stay away from vops, it means we need to
> > >>>>> create a
> > >>>>>>> new
> > >>>>>>>>>>> shader
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everytime we want to layer something, and being able mix
> > >>>>>> and
> > >>>>>>>>> match
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different shaders is much more flexible. Also, having two
> > >>>>>>>>> materials
> > >>>>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> one
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shop node ends in a a messy front end gui, loads of
> > >>>>>>> parameters
> > >>>>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> promote,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we rather artists not deal with vops.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Un saludo
> > >>>>>>> Best Regards
> > >>>>>>> Pablo Giménez
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Peter B
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >>
> > >> Peter B
> > >>
> > >> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > >> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > >> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Un saludo
> > > Best Regards
> > > Pablo Giménez
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ===================================================
> Andrew D Lyons | Software Engineer | http://www.linkedin.com/in/tstex
> ===================================================
> _______________________________________________
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