[Sidefx-houdini-list] Layered shaders in shop

Andrew Lyons tstexture at gmail.com
Fri Sep 19 12:16:02 EDT 2014


I'm interested to know how many studios have implemented the Brent Burley
material model?

http://disney-animation.s3.amazonaws.com/library/s2012_pbs_disney_brdf_notes_v2.pdf
https://docs.unrealengine.com/latest/INT/Engine/Rendering/Materials/PhysicallyBased/index.html

This seemed to me to be a great leap forward in simplifying material
interfaces. A simplified material interface permits interfaces for
materials with multiple layers to become less of an issue for artists.

Surely the ability to create new material configurations with VOPs should
not be beyond any senior artist?

Cheers


On 19 September 2014 03:19, Jordi Bares <jordibares at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is fun I have been playing  lot with PBR_layered_material from Orbolt
>
> https://www.orbolt.com/asset/_danylyon::PBR_layered_material
>
> Which IMHO is really what you are talking about.
>
> Funny enough coming from XSI where all the shaders are closed and you
> can't mess with the internals this is not a problem for me but seems to be
> a major problem for many houdini artists I have talk to.
>
> Is this the case for you? i am interested to know.
>
>
> Jordi Bares
> jordibares at gmail.com
>
> On 19 Sep 2014, at 10:19, Pablo Giménez <pablogipi at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am with Rob.
> > Make a compiled uber shader, it will work for most cases. Uses one copy
> and
> > do objects overrides as most as possible. This will save you a lot of
> > hassle.
> > It is good to have the base shader, where all lighting models are, in a
> > VOP, use this to make the compiled uber shader but also provide the VOP
> > option in case users needs to make more custom looks.
> > 90% of the time you just need to use textures to modulate the BSDFs,
> there
> > is no point to use a completely open material as the base for the look
> dev.
> > Would be great to have some input from Mark to know exactly how Mantra
> > optimizes shaders, and if it mostly based on the code, or is based on
> > parameters vales as well.
> >
> > My 2 cents
> >
> > P
> >
> >
> > 2014-09-19 4:03 GMT+01:00 Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Well, it's not compiling that's so much the issue, it's the actual
> >> optimization of the shader. It's how Mantra has managed to get so fast
> (for
> >> a PBR renderer) without resorting to C++ shaders which would suck....
> so if
> >> you have 100 shaders (even if they're identical, in terms of code) each
> one
> >> will have different parameters set and each needs to be optimized.
> >>
> >> At least, as I understand it, hopefully Mark E will correct me quickly
> :)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Peter B
> >>
> >> On 18 September 2014 19:13, Rob East <east.robert at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> A precompile will help but it's just better if you can have 1 shader
> and
> >>> do object overrides but the catch is you will need a way of updating
> the
> >>> geometry nodes without blowing away your local overrides, which has
> been
> >>> known to happen in some pipelines.
> >>> I must admit I am very much in favour of keeping things simple and not
> >>> having a workflow of using Swiss Army knife shaders !
> >>>
> >>> Rob
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Robert East
> >>> T: +61 0424648857
> >>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> >>> Sydney Australia
> >>>
> >>> From iPhone
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 19 Sep 2014, at 11:47 am, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Good call Peter. What if we pre-compile the shaders before they hit
> >>>> lighting?
> >>>>
> >>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>> Lighting TD
> >>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Beware very long render-startup times though. We have  a single
> >> 3-layer
> >>>>> uber-shader that takes many many minutes to optimize all the
> instances
> >>> of
> >>>>> on a production scene with 60-100 copies of the shader. Reduces
> >>> Lighters to
> >>>>> waiting a looooong time just to see one change.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 18 September 2014 16:43, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hey,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My currently plan is to wrap our shader into a single vop node,
> which
> >>> can
> >>>>>> then be easily duplicated/mixed in vops. Make life a little less
> >>>>>> complicated.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ta,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nick
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>> Lighting TD
> >>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Pablo Giménez <pablogipi at gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As Peter said you don't have coshaders in VEX.
> >>>>>>> Appart from this, which I doubt how useful it will be, many studios
> >>> are
> >>>>>> now
> >>>>>>> getting away of the coshaders workflow for many reasons, for  a
> >> shader
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>> think a prebuilt one with 3/5 layers is enough for 99.9% of the
> >> looks.
> >>>>>>> So honestly, I am not sure if the overhead and development needed
> to
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> coshaders are worth.
> >>>>>>> Can you get your inhouse shader extend to support 3 layers?
> >>>>>>> Before getting coshaders I prefer that SESI provides a better
> >> surface
> >>>>>>> shader, a layered version and improve the multi inputs dialogues so
> >>> you
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>>> drag and drop and reorder all the different entries and get a kind
> >> of
> >>>>>>> photoshop layering mechanism.
> >>>>>>> Coshaders can wait ....
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2014-09-18 8:01 GMT+01:00 Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bugger, thanks Peter!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> >>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Peter Bowmar <pbowmar at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Basically, you can't do it at the moment without going to VOPs
> >>>>> which
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> mention has a lot of overhead. However, a lot of the groundwork
> to
> >>>>> be
> >>>>>>>> able
> >>>>>>>>> to do this has been laid down in Mantra/Vex so hopefully someday
> >>>>>> we'll
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> this ability!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2014 19:40, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's the sort of enthusiasm i'm looking for!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In a renderman context, I thought I could have the layers as
> >>>>>>>> co-shaders,
> >>>>>>>>>> and just import them into a single shader. Can't work out how to
> >>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>>> anything remotely like that in Vex/Mantra, but happy to
> entertain
> >>>>>>>>>> suggestions.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Nicko
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> >>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Matt Estela <
> >>>>>> matt.estela at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> +1000000
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 18 September 2014 12:27, Nick Deboar <nick.deboar at gmail.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Rob,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> We've got our own inhouse shader. Also, it would be nice to
> >>>>>> maybe
> >>>>>>>>> layer
> >>>>>>>>>>>> more than two shaders, and of different shader types.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ta,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:54 AM, Rob East <
> >>>>>>> east.robert at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>    On the orbolt store there is an excellent pbr layered
> >>>>>>> shader
> >>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> artist friendly. The commercial version  is open so you can
> >>>>>>> roll
> >>>>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>>>> own
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> version.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rob
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert East
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> T: +61 0424648857
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> W: www.circusmonkey.com.au
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sydney Australia
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From iPhone
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18 Sep 2014, at 12:01 pm, Nick Deboar <
> >>>>>>>> nick.deboar at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anyway to layer shaders in shop (not vop)?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We rather stay away from vops, it means we need to
> >>>>> create a
> >>>>>>> new
> >>>>>>>>>>> shader
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everytime we want to layer something, and being able mix
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> match
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different shaders is much more flexible. Also, having two
> >>>>>>>>> materials
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shop node ends in a a messy front end gui, loads of
> >>>>>>> parameters
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> promote,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we rather artists not deal with vops.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick Deboar
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lighting TD
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://light.nickdeboar.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Peter B
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Un saludo
> >>>>>>> Best Regards
> >>>>>>> Pablo Giménez
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter B
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >>> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Peter B
> >>
> >> --Fast/cheap/good. Pick two.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> >> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Un saludo
> > Best Regards
> > Pablo Giménez
> > _______________________________________________
> > Sidefx-houdini-list mailing list
> > Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> > https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> https://lists.sidefx.com:443/mailman/listinfo/sidefx-houdini-list
>



-- 
===================================================
Andrew D Lyons | Software Engineer | http://www.linkedin.com/in/tstex
===================================================



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