[Sidefx-houdini-list] Shelf Question

Pablo Giménez pablogipi at gmail.com
Sun Nov 16 06:55:50 EST 2008


2008/11/16, Peter Robbinson <probbins at sympatico.ca>:
>
> While the concept of flexible tools that rely on python is certainly
> attractive, is there not a danger that this evolves into the same
> workflow activity and thethat exists in maya, where any serious work needs
> to involve
> mel scripting?


Nope because the big difference in Houdini is that you always have the
network editor.
I am talking only about to improve the interactivity and the user experience
from the viewport.
In the viewport you ned to be fluent and python can assist on this, if you
need total control and you don't need thid interactivity work from the
network editor.
The two sides of the coin in the same tool, this is one of the big
differences between houdini and any other tool in the market.

PeterR
>
>
>
> Pablo Giménez wrote:
> > You are true in part.
> > The problem is not in the shelf tools structure, is hoe tools have been
> > made.
> > I am agree that for example the tools for simulations are only useful to
> > prototype something and do something fast not for a serious work, unless
> yo
> > improve it a little.
> > For example I built some time ago a tool for the shelf which change the
> > default dopnetwork for simulations. All the tools from the shelf use a
> > default network, usually  defined as Audodop network, good design but
> poor
> > implementation because somebody forgot to allows the users to change this
> > default network in an easy way. The tool from the shelf I made allows to
> do
> > this and then you can place your new tools from the shelf in your own dop
> > network. It will add some stuff that you don't like but make something
> fast,
> > test it and after this clean.
> > This demostrates that the design of the architecture is not bad, only the
> > implementation is a little bit weak, sesi needs to make the tools more
> > flexible, and now with python you can do it, in order to make them
> smarter
> > and flexible. And definitely solve the consistency problems, the easy way
> is
> > simply do evolve something that already exists in Houdini. All operators
> in
> > Houdini have a hscript wrapper who is executed when the tool is used,
> well
> > subtitute this hscript wrappers by python wrappers which detect when you
> are
> > applying your tool, in a viewport or in a network and then do different
> > stuff depending the situation.
> > Only imagine Andy the wokflow you can create for modelling, with smarter
> > python you can make the modelling stuff in Houdini fast and linear as
> > modellers like, but keeping the underlying flexibility of the tool.
> > Hopefully SESI will go in this direction .....
> >
> > 2008/11/15 Andy Nicholas <andy at andynicholas.com>
> >
> >
> >> Firstly, I'll say that I'm coming at this topic with a certain amount of
> >> ignorance, as I've avoided the use of the shelf tools as much as
> possible,
> >> but personally I find them of limited use. Like you guys have already
> >> said, there's an issue with consistency and managing interaction states,
> >> but I think there are problems way beyond that.
> >>
> >> When I'm building something in Houdini, I like to spend a lot of time
> >> taking care over placement of nodes, and making sure that I structure
> >> everything very carefully to make it as readable as possible. As soon as
> >> you click one of those Shelf buttons, all bets are off. Unless you want
> to
> >> spend a lot of time figuring out exactly what each button does, it could
> >> potentially create nodes somewhere that you really don't want it to.
> >>
> >> Let's say I've done a lot of work creating an RBD simulation and I click
> >> one of the shelf buttons to add something, say, a ground collision. It's
> >> kinda pot luck where that's going into my network. That's not something
> I
> >> particular appreciate! As mentioned already, it wouldn't be so bad if
> you
> >> could at least direct it to put the newly created nodes in a specific
> >> place in your network. But then, I'd rather just use the Tab key.
> >>
> >> The only ones I ever use are the ones to do with simulation, and that's
> >> only to use them as examples to check out how to piece stuff together. I
> >> think the shelf tools are also great if you're giving a demo to show off
> >> how easy it is to construct a simulation quickly with a few clicks, but
> >> how often does that ever happen in production?
> >>
> >> I can see why they were put in there; to appeal to people coming from
> >> other packages who want to transfer their workflow across, but I can't
> >> help that it's a facade that doesn't represent the reality of the day to
> >> day production methodology of using Houdini.
> >>
> >> I dunno, what do you guys think? I'm very interested to hear if I'm just
> >> being closed minded on this. Does anyone use the shelves all the time
> >> during a job? If so, what for?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Andy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> 2008/11/15 Francois-Xavier Boussard <b.fx at free.fr>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Pablo,
> >>>>
> >>>> I totally agree with you, the shelf tools needs more care. That was
> the
> >>>> meaning of my answer. It is possible to have great tools with it. It
> is
> >>>> so
> >>>> flexible. It need more doc !
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Yes it seems to be a very early implementation, also it needs more
> stuff
> >>> in
> >>> the python side, curently many things to deal with the ui are very
> >>> cimplicated, i know that sesi is working in this side, but the overall
> >>> architecture and how tool are integrated in the rest of the package is
> >>> really good.
> >>> The other problem i found is the duplicate stuff between pure
> operators,
> >>> liek in the old houdini and the new shelf tools.
> >>> In my opinion the TAB in the viewport will need to contain primary
> tools
> >>> form the shelf, basically the old operator in houdini but with a
> wrapper
> >>> in
> >>> python to make all the things needed to interact with the user, the
> tool
> >>> launched from the viewport are sippose to be interactive. isn't it?
> >>> You can also have a seconday menu that give yo access to the operators,
> >>> now
> >>> is the opposite the TAB menu in the viewport give more preference to
> the
> >>> operators and you need to open a secundary menu to get access to the
> tool
> >>> from the shelf.
> >>> For instance with extrusion, is more easier to access to the old
> >>> extrussion
> >>> node, when is suppose the is more flexible to access to the extrussion
> >>> tool
> >>> which can make many thngs in python to make easier to apply the
> >>> extrussion.
> >>> In the network TAB cos is suppose that working from the netwrok is not
> an
> >>> interactive action, you put you operator but not interact with it from
> >>>
> >> the
> >>
> >>> viewport is better to keep the current state.
> >>> But having a strong toolset from the shelf with an easy access from the
> >>> TAB
> >>> menu can make possible for example to design a strong modelling
> workflow
> >>> in
> >>> Houdini.
> >>> Anyway I think that SESI is concerned about this and the current state
> is
> >>> the typical situation of a tansition between two different ways of
> >>> working,
> >>> placing pure operators that only apply th operation or having wrappers
> to
> >>> thei operators which helps the users to apply them.
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> wrong thread before, sorry for that.
> >>>> francois
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Mail Original -----
> >>>> De: "Pablo Giménez" <pablogipi at gmail.com>
> >>>> À: sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com, "Francois-Xavier Boussard" <
> >>>> b.fx at free.fr>
> >>>> Envoyé: Samedi 15 Novembre 2008 02:06:43 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin
> /
> >>>> Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
> >>>> Objet: Re: [Sidefx-houdini-list] Shelf Question
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Francois how are you ...
> >>>> Well certainly you can create nodes in the network editor from a
> python
> >>>> script contained in the shelf, I don't have any snippet of code here
> for
> >>>> you
> >>>> but I have done this.
> >>>> So is possible. And yes the shelf is really cool, in my opinion the
> >>>> tools
> >>>> shipped with Houdini are not correctly designed because almost all of
> >>>> them
> >>>> at the end of the operation dont leave the tool in a usable state.
> >>>> For example, try the parent tool from the modify shelf, you have two
> >>>> object
> >>>> parent one to the other, the tool is leave in the parent state, so now
> >>>> you
> >>>> cannot select anything, you have to select another tool to be able to
> >>>> select
> >>>> something in the viewport, this breaks complitelly the workflow and is
> >>>> very
> >>>> annoying, and happens with almost all the tools from the shelf.
> >>>> I think that passing the control to the transform tool, which allows
> to
> >>>> freely select object in the vewport, after appplying any tool will be
> >>>> much
> >>>> more useful for the user.
> >>>> cheers
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2008/11/14 Francois-Xavier Boussard < b.fx at free.fr >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> Not very clear for me what is the standard behaviour for the shelf
> >>>> python
> >>>> scripted tools. I guess the main reason is you can use those script
> from
> >>>> everywhere, shelf or tab menu... and that is really great.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example, creating a SOP rop with the 'generictool' function will
> >>>> create
> >>>> the node without any Ctrl click or viewer click as long as there is an
> >>>> active sop network panel.
> >>>> The same code for a file sop node, no way to avoid the viewer or Ctrl
> >>>> click. (i don't need to position a file sop in the viewer, did i ?)
> >>>> I tryed 'genericSopNodeGeneratorTool' that get a prompt option. It
> don't
> >>>> seems to be for that purpose ?
> >>>>
> >>>> # rop SOP node
> >>>> import soptoolutils
> >>>> soptoolutils.genericTool(kwargs, 'rop_geometry')
> >>>>
> >>>> # file SOP node
> >>>> import soptoolutils
> >>>> soptoolutils.genericTool(kwargs, 'file')
> >>>>
> >>>> # file SOP node created from genericSopNodeGeneratorTool
> >>>> import soptoolutils
> >>>> soptoolutils.genericSopNodeGeneratorTool(kwargs,'file', 'File',
> >>>> prompt='None')
> >>>>
> >>>> Is there a way to achieve node creation in a network pane, no viewer
> >>>> click
> >>>> or Ctrl click? Maybe one click in a right type network pane ? It is
> >>>> tedious
> >>>> when creating a full network. The turn around i have is to get the
> path
> >>>> for
> >>>> the network from first node created and then use the python node
> >>>> creation
> >>>> hou.node().createdNode(). But i guess i miss something...
> >>>>
> >>>> francois
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Mail Original -----
> >>>> De: "Adrian Lee" < dryrainstudios at gmail.com >
> >>>> À: sidefx-houdini-list at sidefx.com
> >>>> Envoyé: Jeudi 13 Novembre 2008 14:23:08 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin
> /
> >>>> Berne / Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
> >>>> Objet: Re: [Sidefx-houdini-list] Shelf Question
> >>>>
> >>>> Just swapped my desktop about too.
> >>>>
> >>>> The error I get when trying to drag the box from the shelf at obj
> level
> >>>> is
> >>>> "The attempted operation failed. Invalid node type name"
> >>>>
> >>>> if I make a geo and go into it I get no error when dragging, but there
> >>>> agtain you dont really want a box at obj level.
> >>>>
> >>>> dont know if that helped
> >>>>
> >>>> Ed
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2008/11/13 Phil Spicer < PSpicer at bournemouth.ac.uk >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Ed,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I was just trying a different Desktop config, and wanted the shelves
> >>>>> directly over the Network Editor. When I drag a box object onto the
> >>>>>
> >>>> network
> >>>>
> >>>>> I get an error because it is meant to be invoked through the viewer.
> I
> >>>>>
> >>>> can
> >>>>
> >>>>> hold down CTRL when LMB the shelf node, but it doesn't have the same
> >>>>>
> >>>> level
> >>>>
> >>>>> of interactivity that I would like...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess I want the feeling of being able to tear things of the shelf
> >>>>>
> >>>> really
> >>>>
> >>>>> rapidly directly onto the Network Editor. I am probably after a
> hybrid
> >>>>>
> >>>> of
> >>>>
> >>>>> the speed of the shelves with the functionality of tab menu system.
> If
> >>>>>
> >>>> I
> >>>>
> >>>>> could do this manually with my hands, I would want to use both hands
> >>>>>
> >>>> to
> >>>> grab
> >>>>
> >>>>> and claw shelf tools in turn onto the Network Editor as fast as
> >>>>>
> >>>> humanly
> >>>>
> >>>>> possible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Any thoughts welcome.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The UK's no. 1 new university
> >>>>> The Guardian University Guide 2009
> >>>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Un saludo
> >>>> Best Regards
> >>>> Pablo Giménez
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Un saludo
> >>> Best Regards
> >>> Pablo Giménez
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
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-- 
Un saludo
Best Regards
Pablo Giménez



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